We’re being persecuted, say Lake District off-road drivers (From The Westmorland Gazette)
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We’re being persecuted, say Lake District off-road drivers
9:00am Thursday 2nd September 2010 in Ballots
OFF ROAD: Instructor Ellie Leighfield, of Windermere off-road company Kankku, guides Andrew Parton on Parka Moor, with Walna Scar road in the background.
OFF-road enthusiasts claim they are being persecuted and forced off the hills after a landmark High Court ruling.
An appeal in London has decreed that 4x4s should be banned from an iconic Lakeland route after a legal battle which has rumbled on for five years.
Countryside campaigners and walking groups are delighted by the ruling – but off-roaders are fuming at the judgement to ban them from the Walna Scar Pass between Coniston and Seathwaite.
Alan Kidd, senior editor of the Off Road Yearbook, said: “Off-road drivers feel enormously and unfairly persecuted, that there’s a campaign of vilification against us by other user groups, particularly some of the more militant walking groups who try to paint a very unfair picture of the damage that 4x4 drivers cause.
“Motorbike and 4x4 users are by-and-large very responsible users.
"There is so much pressure on us because we feel like we’re being persecuted and watched like hawks.”
Graham Plumbe, vice-chairman of the Green Lanes Protection Group (GLPG), an alliance of 21 organisations including the Friends of the Lake District, said: "These off-road vehicles have been a nuisance since they first started hill climbing competitively in 1917 and have few supporters locally.
“The Lake District passes are part of our heritage and part of the sheer splendour of the environment.
"Motor vehicles are totally out of place on any fell pass except of course where there is a proper road.
"It’s the unsurfaced roads where we feel they’re completely out of place.
“None of us want vehicles in the countryside so if we have a good legal argument then we would employ it to prevent vehicles from using that route.
“Of course once a motor vehicle has a legal right to use a route and if it is a sustainable or legal route then we don’t oppose it.”
“Walna Scar is an important fell pass, used extensively by walkers to access Coniston Old Man.
"Sorting out the question of rights has been a battle since the law was radically changed in May 2006, but the position now is that the track is a bridleway and motorised use can be prosecuted by the police.”
Nick Fieldhouse, owner of Windermere-based off road leisure company Kankku, said: “It’s exactly the same as the Windermere speed limit - there’s been a perceived problem, a planning inspector has looked into the problem, he reports back and says ‘It shouldn’t be closed’ and then somebody higher up says ‘We’re not going to take note of the research’.
“That negativity needs to go because we’ve got to work together if we want to make the place sing.
"We’ve got to work hard and we can’t be messing about with problems like this over and over again.”
Julie Darroch, of Cumbria Tourism, said: “There’s no reason why horse riders, bike riders, 4x4 drivers and others can’t all use Walna Scar.
“We think it’s important to offer different types of experience to attract people here.
“Everybody’s got their own different types of adventure, for some people it’s going off-roading and going up difficult and technical routes because there is a real sense of adventure so in that sense, we would want people to enjoy and appreciate that type of experience.”
Off-roaders and conservationists are also fighting for access to Garburn Pass, between Kentmere and Troutbeck.
It is currently prohibited to mechanical off-road vehicles, but a final decision on its status is expected to be made by a government planning inspector next month.
Comments(49)
Quo vadis?
says...
3:47pm Fri 3 Sep 10
Inglishman
says...
5:07pm Fri 3 Sep 10
There really is no reason why sustainable routes such as Walna Scar cannot be used by ALL visitors to the Lake District.
Lets face it, the estimates are that of all the non-metaled tracks/rights of way, only 2% or 3% are open to motorised use.
Are we really saying we cannot share these routes?
If walkers/ramblers really don't want to meet motorised vehicles, then why not use the 98% of tracks where motorised vehicles CANNOT go?
A few weeks ago, I was privelidged to once again drive along Walna Scar. The last time I followed the route was just prior to the closure in 2006/2007, and considering the route has ONLY been used by walkers in this interim time, the damage was significant in some parts.
Off-road groups are keen on giving up their weekends to carry out maintenance and repairs. I have NEVER found any ramblers doing this.
The damage I found on the track would undoubtedly have been repaired by responsible off-road vehicle users.
Lets stop the persecution of a small and responsible group of visitors to the Lake District.
STATIONMAN
says...
9:22pm Fri 3 Sep 10
navmanl200
says...
11:05pm Fri 3 Sep 10
SO.... next time a 'fell walker' falls and breaks a limb, they should be told, sorry sir/madam... you will have to get yourselves back down from the side of the fell, because 'YOU' (collectively) have banned the use of 4X4 vehicles from Walna Scar.
And before anyone jumps on and says what about the Air Ambulance or any of the military air services, i know they are available, BUT... 4X4's go to more mountain injuries than any other form of transport, due to cost, and ease of access.
So go on Discuss....
wascal
says...
11:07pm Fri 3 Sep 10
wascal
says...
11:19pm Fri 3 Sep 10
navmanl200
says...
8:11am Sat 4 Sep 10
wascal wrote:In answer to your question.
navmanl200, that is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard! Drop the 'us and them' attitude, do you never walk and do you think walkers drive? A happy medium can never be reached when such aggresive, nonsensical remarks are spouted without thinking!
Yes i do walk, and have walked most of the area around Walna Scar over my years. I was not suggesting there was a them & Us, as i partake in both pursuits. What i was saying is that it seems the ramblers want it all their own way, and seem to think that 1000's of feet don't do ANY damage to the surface of the tracks, which is simply not the case, as the tracks that vehicles have NO access to need resurfacing quite regularly due to erosion from human traffic.
If you read the article the ramblers have a 'them & us' attitude so you saying my them & us attitude is ridiculous is not right then is it. I quote form the article..u."Countrys
ide campaigners and walking groups are delighted by the ruling" & "None of us want vehicles in the countryside so if we have a good legal argument then we would employ it to prevent vehicles from using that route" & "Motor vehicles are totally out of place on any fell pass"
And you tell me that isn't a 'them & us' attitude ??
lakes_local
says...
9:54am Sat 4 Sep 10
I have on recently witnesses a well-known off road company using the Walna Scar road with 8 vehicles and not one stopped for the group of walkers coming down the fellside, and instead forced the walkers to seek alternative paths (creating more work for the Fix the Fells teams).
The following day I walked up the Walna Scar and there were small, but distinct, oil trails where one of the vehicles had obviously had a leak. One of the big slate slabs had also been moved to behind a large, deep (more than 6 inches) and long (more than 5 feet) tyre ditch, and in doing this the slab had cracked in two.
Walkers do damage, off roaders do more.
As a local that lives by this road the 30 mins or so that it takes to claim the road is lovely as all we can hear is the constant revving of engine- even nicer when well-known companies offer 'night driving' experiences.
wascal
says...
10:52am Sat 4 Sep 10
lakes_local
says...
11:38am Sat 4 Sep 10
Actions speak louder than words- it would have been nice to see a more pro-active approach from off roaders in the first place perhaps then they wouldn't be facing this opposition...
wascal
says...
1:40pm Sat 4 Sep 10
Lancs Rover
says...
6:45pm Sat 4 Sep 10
STATIONMAN wrote:Er? Pardon?
Inglishman must be joking. I'm a fix the fells volunteer and none of the volunteers I work with repairing path damage are off roaders. My experience is exactly opposite to what he says, I just can't imagine any of those off road drivers stopping to repair the damage they've caused, most of the time they are oblivious as to what they've done.
http://www.thewestmo
rlandgazette.co.uk/n
ews/farming/577421.M
otor_group_gets_stuc
k_in/
http://www.thewestmo
rlandgazette.co.uk/n
ews/farming/1000943.
Trail_riders_help_re
pair_roadways/
LandyPhil
says...
6:46pm Sat 4 Sep 10
Unofficial work is not ideal,far from it but sadly the system in place to deal with “road repairs” because that is what legally BOATS’s are after all and a Fix the Fells project is very different. There have been many working parties in the past based around vehicular users doing quite significant repair to certain routes. Gatesgarth and Grizedale being prime examples.
When Walna was opened there were many locals who like me were keen to get up there on an official repair working party. There are a few places especially that need work all of which have deteriated considerably in the last 5 years. Of course as its vehicles that cause all this damage it’s only right that we….no wait a minute Walna Scar has been shut for the past 5 years to vehicles so what’s caused the damage?.
Water, water and water. Unlike say the route up Scafell which clearly is a blot on the landscape much to the suffering of the National Trust and those who try to keep in one piece (maybe it’s time that’s closed for maintenance?) Walna has suffered at the hands of nature more than the feet of people(and the dreaded earth loosener that is the walking pole). But still there are those who are willing to drive it and repair it rather than point the finger.
I find the logic that someone has been less than responsible (8 in a convoy mentioned above) a little difficult to use when it comes to tarring all with the same brush. I’ve lived in a few places in Cumbria and the Lakes and have been on the receiving end of walking group based trespass on numerous occasions. Sometimes with expensive damage as a result. So do I base the behavior of a few communists who dislike the notion of “owning property” as basis for the whole walking community? Of course not! That would be illogical in the extreme.
There is one question I would love to ask Mr Plumbe in the comfort of his Hampshire residence? In the past responsible groups have run events allowing those who can’t walk the chance to visit parts of the lakes and countryside that is physically out of reach. In the future I would love to see this run again.
While there has been some truly excellent work with the “Miles Without Styles” project in the Lakes I cannot see how anyone can do something that reduces access for less abled and be “delighted” to use the term in the article above.
Maybe Mr Plumbe would care to suggest a good practical alternative that could traverse Walna Scar in safety?
Lancs Rover
says...
6:52pm Sat 4 Sep 10
Try copying & pasting the following links without the brackets at each end.
(http://www.thewestm
o
rlandgazette.co.uk/n
ews/farming/577421.M
otor_group_gets_stuc
k_in/)
(http://www.thewestm
o
rlandgazette.co.uk/n
ews/farming/1000943.
Trail_riders_help_re
pair_roadways/)
pmailkeey
says...
9:33pm Sat 4 Sep 10
If off-roaders are banned from it they should keep off it - I'd suggest at least 3m to the left of it.
LandyPhil
says...
8:02am Sun 5 Sep 10
wascal
says...
2:40pm Sun 5 Sep 10
LandyPhil
says...
6:07pm Sun 5 Sep 10
When it comes to detriment of locals etc I can say had on heart I've never walked into the garden at my parent house to find a group of Land Rovers sat around the garden table. (The handbrake drum would catch on the edge of the seats anyway) but unbelievably that's happened with a walking group who assumed they had the right to use it despite knowing that there isn't a right of way anywhere near!
While my families land has been damaged by trespass and fences trampled costing hundreds yet it's never been by something with wheels....but I still don't call for a "ban" on walking quite the opposite because quite frankly, I'd rather rise above such small mindedness.
wascal
says...
8:16pm Sun 5 Sep 10
LandyPhil
says...
10:29pm Sun 5 Sep 10
The line "I don't call for a "ban" on walking quite the opposite"........Jus
t trying to see how that is classed as an "attack on the walking fraternity" which would include myself as well.
It's an example of how one person can not be swayed by a few extremists and unfortunate incidents for sure, but I wouldn't call it an "attack" in fact you could say it's "quite the opposite"!
Outdoor Ed
says...
11:10pm Sun 5 Sep 10
Now I am a responsible user of the fells, I stick to my legal rights of way depending on what form of transport I choose for my outdoor experience.
Now I would love to say this for all the other walkers, mountain bikers and 4x4 drivers I meet, but it simply isn't the case and when they are irresponsible all of them cause damage.
But let me point out there are MANY more irresponsible hill walkers than the rest, hence why the things like the emergency shelter on the summit Ben Nevis in Scotland had to be demolished, due to it being used as a dustbin and toilet.
I teach people on the fells and teach them to be responsible but you wouldn't believe the number of people I see up there just dropping their rubbish, I often come home with a lot more rubbish than I left with.
The point is the fells are there for us all to enjoy and a militant view on just one type of user is both unfair and uncalled for. The Green-lanes and byways, can be used by everyone, but lets not point fingers and get angry with each other.
One point I will say is wascal you state "Fell walking does damage paths, most walkers will admit that, but it does not impinge on anyone else's enjoyment" That is ridiculous, you must be walking round with your eyes closed, because some of the SCARS left on the fells from walkers straying just a little off the path, do impinge on my enjoyment, even as a seasoned mountaineer, they are very ugly and really do spoil the views.
Outdoor Ed
says...
11:16pm Sun 5 Sep 10
Pieter4x4
says...
9:22am Mon 6 Sep 10
wascal
says...
11:03am Mon 6 Sep 10
Comments from off-roaders like 'The bobble-hats have done it again' do nothing for your cause, how do any of you expect people to agree with you when all you do is squabble like children?
Some of the points raised like Disabled access are certainly valid but why spoil it with the vitriol? And no, I have not heard of organisations like GLASS, but is that my fault? Perhaps if they were better supported they would be more well known!
ShadesTd5
says...
2:25pm Mon 6 Sep 10
11:03am Mon 6 Sep 10
Very clever Landyphil, all you have done is demonstrating my point- attack, point score and belittle!"
…Is this not what you are doing to all of his posts? Picking them apart for your own satisfaction?
“And no, I have not heard of organizations like GLASS, but is that my fault? Perhaps if they were better supported they would be more well known!”
…Yes that is your fault GLASS IS well known to 4x4er’s and also none 4x4er’s for the work they do, Perhaps before you start saying off roaders don’t do any work or don’t care you should research what they do do. It is, unfortunately people like you who proclaim to know everything that goes on, but in fact knows very little of work that takes place behind the scenes before making your choice.
You say “I have always been pretty undecided on this one but everything I see or hear about the behavior of off-roaders does push me against them”
This comment is interesting; in the news how many news lines do you hear about a plane landing safely? Or a bus making its bus route on time? Or there being no traffic on the motorway? – can I answer? Hardly any and why is that? Its because nice stories don’t make for good news, no news story would air that said – “ a group of walkers walked across a field today, they made it safely” – YAWN! They would say though “a group of walkers trashed a field today, littering and destroying the farmer’s crops”
I am an outdoor enthusiast and 4x4 enthusiast, walking is a major passion, but like its said above the amount of walkers I have seen who miss treat the paths do far more damage, not only are the views being wrecked with the litter and the straying off the paths, but this in turn also destroys the natural habitat for the wildlife, the off road users are inclined and do stay on the paths that they are meant to use, because to stray off would be dangerous to them selves and others.
So to Wascal I would suggest you do some research into the work that off roaders do, and start with GLASS as you have said yourself you don’t know what they do or who they are – and that IS your fault obviously you are not that interested in what goes on in your area otherwise you would of known GLASS exist from the work they have done, Before making a decision, make sure you have 100% of the facts.
wascal
says...
2:43pm Mon 6 Sep 10
LandyPhil
says...
5:28pm Mon 6 Sep 10
Still confused on the attack bit. I am a walker, a cyclist and a driver and I really do believe in fair access for all, but yes I will attack ANY user group who behaves in the countryside irresponsibly. (Those who know me know my views and tactics when it comes to cowboy offroaders..for example). But I won't stick my head in the sand and say that a certain user group are whiter than white. The key thing is that ALL user groups create issues some of the time and that the key to successful access management is to accept this. The National Park themselves have got this pretty sussed and in the case of this route are only interested in the legalities and aren't bothered about the "politics" of one groups campaign to abolish another user group who is happy to co-exist. Something to be commended which shows integrity.
ShadesTd5
says...
5:44pm Mon 6 Sep 10
"You don't hear about walkers trashing fields because it does not happen!" - I'd rethink that bold statement unless you have monitored every walking group 24/7, I have seen several groups ruin a farmers crop, peoples gardens, litter, create there own paths from ALL age ranges around the UK and in the lakes!
I didn't think this was a discussion on who knew the most about the lake district, kudos to you for your knowledge on that, but I feel ("in my opinion") your knowledge on the actual topic is lacking
"I do not know everything about the 2 subjects but I have been attacked by only one side!" You haven’t been attacked and I resent that, you admitting it your self don't know everything about the 2 subjects, yet in previous comments you have "made up your mind" How is that possible? when all people have done is point out what you did not know, all everyone has done is provide evidence, Yet you are the one making bold statements about the 2 groups and therefore you yourself are creating this “us and them” attitude.
I have thought long about you question, “Am I only allowed an opinion on things that I know 100%” and my answer is when obviously you do not know about what you are making an opinion on you should seek 100% of the facts before making your choice, otherwise you’ve made it biased, uniformed and with out reason, you might as well do ip-dip-do.
There IS NO “US AND THEM” only 3rd party bystanders trying to create rift to cause an argument – a bit like play ground antics one kid tries to get two other kids to a fight by winding both sides up “they said this” “they’ve done that”
wascal
says...
5:52pm Mon 6 Sep 10
The perception is that off roaders do not give a dam but actions speak louder than words, you put forward a good case but tell your mates that referring to 'bobble-hats' does not help!
DrT
says...
10:07pm Mon 6 Sep 10
jonzo
says...
9:02am Tue 7 Sep 10
jonzo
says...
11:28am Tue 7 Sep 10
I'm not a 4x4 driver by the way, just cant abide some peoples narrow minded attitudes that only seem to be getting worse!
Soubriquet
says...
7:26pm Tue 7 Sep 10
I belong to a Land-Rover club which conducts competitive events at various privately owned sites. Any of our members who want an off-road challenge tend to put their energies into competition, and not out on the lanes and tracks. We educate our members in safe, non-damaging and courteous driving. Over the years, I've been involved in a number of road repair activities.
My relatives are mostly farmers. Ask them about crop damage from walkers, and you'll get an ear-bending. And there are the gates left open, machinery clambered upon, cans, bottles, crisp-packets, toilet paper.... need I go on?
Both walkers and 4x4 users have good and bad in their numbers. Both cause wear and tear. It wasn't 4x4 users that caused the great scars on Whernside, Ingleborough, and Pen Y Ghent, nor were vehicles responsible for the boggy morasses on the pennine way.
Yet where was the outcry when helicopters had to be used to ferry stone up to the pathways?
It seems there's a selective blame process that ignores the damage caused by many thousands of feet, and attributes any and all wear on the track to the few vehicles that pass.
And it is a few. Consult the National Park's own figures. You'll find the vehicle movements on Walna were very few.
And some of those were agricultural, and the park's own vehicles.
B1N There
says...
11:01pm Tue 7 Sep 10
I do however live on the outskirts of Snowdonia and am both a lover of the countryside/mountain
s and a 4x4 driver.
I have no inclination to ban walkers from the countryside (although, some could do with some serious education on behaviour whilst visiting areas !), likewise, I have no inclination to ban the very small minority of offroad entusiasts from the countryside (some of whom could also do with some education on behaviour), there is plenty of space for ALL forms of recreation and NO group should consider themselves as the ALPHA users of the countryside.
I think the majority of 4x4 offroad drivers are generally sympathetic to the land they use, since there is so little available to them for their enjoyment.
With this in mind, like already suggested, why not leave these LEGAL byways alone, let them be enjoyed by those that seek their enjoyment from driving these ancient tracks and since they cover such a tiny percentage of the countryside, walkers should just go elsewhere ? i.e. Stick to non vehicluar tracks. It does seem that some groups want to "have their Kendal cake AND eat it".
This does seem to smack of a bullying nature, where the larger majority is persecuting the minority group, solely so they can have it ALL their own way.
I fail to understand why 4x4's 'spoil' the countryside for others (JUST DONT LOOK AT THEM !!). As a seasoned walker in Snowdonia, I am quite often repulsed by the sight of 50 or so 'sightseers' trampling their way up Snowdon, often schoolkids from towns, dropping crisp packets, etc. I am also sick of 'walking' down a country lane, only to be confronted by piles a horse manure !! perhaps we should ban them too !!!
In summary, live and let live. I ALWAYS treat fellow outdoor lovers with respect, no matter how they care to enjoy themselves. It's just a shame some small minded people can't do the same.
Maltelec
says...
10:02pm Wed 8 Sep 10
1. "off-road" vehicles tends to indicate a vehicle which is not legal for use on a public highway. As a "green lane" is a public highway, all vehicles using them must be road-legal.
2. Quite a lot of tar-maced roads are in fact bridleways, many are in fact illegal to drive a motor vehicle on. You would probably never know if you were on one because the fact that it is a bridleway has probably been long forgotten about.
3. Not everyone goes to the lake district to walk around the fells. Just because it would seem to be the most popular event there doesn't mean everything else should be moved out the way for a foot path.
There are vehicle problems in the lake district. Most of them are caused by tourists and their inability to park, let alone drive down a country road.
The Lake District isn't just there for the sight seers, people live there and have jobs to do, most of them are not in the tourist trade either. There have been times I have had to use my 4WD vehicle to access areas with tools and machinery otherwise inaccessible by car. These jobs can't be done without the ability to use the green lanes.
Just remember, a green lane is one of the early farm tracks which was never up-graded to tar mac 150 years ago. Just like you will go for a nice sunday drive around Coniston Water, some people like to go for a nice sunday drive on one of these green lanes.
MaxMaximus
says...
1:27am Sat 11 Sep 10
mplaints/arguments and i really have to laugh... so i will... ha ha ha..
I have read you all arguing that you love the country side, and i have also read you all arguing that one group deserves the right to the country side MORE than other groups, and/or that other groups do not have any rights at all, yet, i have also read all sides admit to damaging the country side (which seems to be the main topic here)...
What are you all actually arguing here.. that NO ONE PERSON OR GROUPS OF PERSONS SHOULD BE ENTITLED TO USE OUR COUNTRY SIDE FOR RECREATIONAL PURPOSES ???
Because reading through (along with my own experiences), it seems to me that unless you all FLY TO THE SUMMIT (so to speak) then no one may touch the country side as you will ALL CAUSE DAMAGE TO IT!!
Very simply... you all need to STOP pointing the finger and accept the fact that we are 'ALL' entitled to enjoy our country side ALL OVER BRITAIN not just at this location whether it be 'walking, rambling, running, climbing, pot holing, canoeing, photography, camping, 4x4's, mountain bike's, motor bike's, quad bike's, horse riding, tractors and other farming vehicles..... etc. etc. etc. recreational or not..... so stop fighting each other and work together, but, do it with a smile on your face and a respect for ALL, including the land it self :)
lifecycle
says...
3:33pm Sat 11 Sep 10
wascal wrote:It is clear from reading here that Wascal is right.
The real problem with all this is that the off-roaders don't seem to give a dam what anybody else thinks. Both sides can argue all day long about the pros and cons of each others activities but what it comes down to is which activity has the most detrimental effect on others. Fell walking does damage paths, most walkers will admit that, but it does not impinge on anyone else's enjoyment. Off-roading on the other hand has a severe detrimental effect on others. I was undecided but the flippancy and unsympathetic attitude of the off-roaders has pushed me against them
Only Wascals opinion matters, and there is no point in others holding contrary opinions, because Wascals opinion overrides all others!
.
Still, no reason why you all should not put your points across for others to appreciate - I am particularly impressed with DrT from Morecambe who should become the Supreme Being in all matters to do with the National Park!
.
I don't particularly like the attitude of Kankku - my take is that they put the BUSINESS of Kankku before all else, but the arguments I have seen against 4x4 use show the authors to be equally intransigent and bigoted!
.
All that is required is to rule that 4x4 use can continue, as long as any "tour" of more than two vehicles is accompanied by a National Park warden to oversee the use of the routes, and ensure that the paths are not damaged by overuse... especially commercial overuse.
The national Park IS for the enjoyment of ALL, but that enjoyment should not be compromised by a commercial activity which is using the facility for free!
I am all in favour of having a toll booth at the end of most Lakeland Valleys!
argh !
says...
4:18pm Mon 13 Sep 10
But where on this website can one vote ? Have the 4x4s rubbed out the link ?
LandyPhil
says...
6:23pm Mon 13 Sep 10
Couldn't help but chuckle of the irony of saying the motorised minority are more vocal than justified!
Soubriquet
says...
6:36pm Mon 13 Sep 10
4:18pm Mon 13 Sep 10
Your vote in favour of vehicle free fell roads is required as the motorised minority seem to be the more vocal than is justified.
But where on this website can one vote ? Have the 4x4s rubbed out the link ?"
Surely, Argh, your logic is skewed. Why would the 4x4s rub out the link, when the voting is so firmly in their favour?
"More vocal than is justified", How vocal must one be, when someone seeks to deprive you of your rights?
I wonder if the Ramblers Association would care to advise the 4x4 users on the technique they used, when they sought access to areas to which they at the time had no legal rights. i.e. Mass illegal trespass?
(http://www.guardian
.co.uk/uk/1932/apr/2
5/1)
The 4x4 users want only to continue to use those routes to which they have in the past had legal access. They don't seek to bar anyone else.
gladlancs
says...
12:57pm Tue 14 Sep 10
simontwithers
says...
12:58pm Tue 14 Sep 10
Danno2003
says...
1:21pm Tue 14 Sep 10
actprime
says...
10:22pm Tue 14 Sep 10
Danno2003
says...
3:20pm Wed 15 Sep 10
actprime wrote:Quagmires? a quagmire is an area of soft ground normally created naturally through high rain fall and or poor drainage. They have a been around a fair while you know and im fairly sure they have nothing to do with 4x4, cyclists, horses walkers the price of cheese or pretty much anything else! Good effort though, well done you for trying.
Decent tracks are turned into quagmires by 4x4 s and motorbikes - Ban them.
actprime
says...
8:33am Thu 16 Sep 10
Danno2003
says...
8:35pm Thu 16 Sep 10
actprime wrote:Yey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Decent tracks are turned into deep furrows of mud by 4x4 & motorbikes, virtually impassable to walkers & cyclists - effective BANNING is required
! you tried really really hard and have clearly put a lot of time and effort into correcting your previously lets say 'factually lacking' post..... however...... there is just one teensy weensy little problem with what you have just said and to be honest I feel a bit of an old fuddy duddy for pulling you up on it but I'm only thinking of you when I tell you that deep muddy furrows can only be formed when you drive (or walk, cycle, ride) through deep muddy ground! ALL of the lakeland routes open to 4x4's traverse hard stony surfaces and ALL these routes are still EASILY negotiable on either a suitable cycle, on horse back, by foot or some cases roller skates.
4/10
must try harder
spion kop
says...
6:09pm Sat 25 Sep 10
petebettess says...
7:02pm Thu 2 Sep 10